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特朗普说的是“粪坑”还是“茅房”,重要吗?

更新时间:2018-1-18 19:36:51 来源:纽约时报中文网 作者:佚名

Debate Continues Over What Trump Said. But Does the Exact Word Matter?
特朗普说的是“粪坑”还是“茅房”,重要吗?

Over a three-day weekend at his private club in Palm Beach, Fla., President Trump showed little or no concern about the angry reaction set off by his use of obscenities to describe the third world countries he fears immigrants could come from under a new immigration bill. His base loved what he said, he told guests at the club, Mar-a-Lago, a refrain he repeated in phone calls over the holiday weekend.

在佛罗里达州棕榈滩的私人俱乐部度过三天周末假日期间,特朗普总统很少或者根本没有担心他使用不雅言语描述第三世界国家可能会引发什么愤怒反应——他担心在新的移民法案之下,那些国家的移民可能会来到美国。在马阿拉歌(Mar-a-Lago)俱乐部,他告诉客人,自己的选民很喜欢他说的话,在周末假期打电话时,他一再重复这个说法。

But back in Washington on Tuesday, his advisers and congressional allies have tried to limit the fallout from his remarks in an Oval Office meeting last week, insisting that he had never described the countries as “shitholes.” Some who had been in the meeting said they had not heard his descriptions. Others insisted in background conversations with reporters that they were told the word he had spoken was “shithouse,” a phrase that he often uses to describe physical structures that he finds unsavory.

但周二回到华盛顿后,他的顾问和国会盟友试图控制上周他在椭圆形办公室会议中发表的这些言论的后果,坚称他从来没有把那些国家形容为“粪坑”(shithole)。一些参加会议的人说,他们没有听到他这句话;还有一些人在私下与记者交谈时坚称,他们被告知他说的那个词是“茅房”(shithouse),他经常用这个词来形容他认为丑陋讨厌的实体构造。

It was an unusual debate over words that until last Thursday had rarely, if ever, appeared in any mainstream news media. And if the argument seemed to amount to a distinction without a difference, neither the White House nor its allies have publicly acknowledged it, although some Trump aides have privately. There has also not been any acknowledgment that both words, as well as reports of Mr. Trump’s stated preference for immigrants from places like Norway, were offensive and many considered them racist.

这是一个很不寻常的文字之争,直到上周四之前还几乎没有出现在任何主流新闻媒体上。就算这两个词似乎大同小异,白宫和它的盟友也没有公开承认这一点,虽然特朗普的一些助手私下里承认了。此外也没有人承认,这两个词——乃至特朗普据称偏好挪威等地移民的相关报道——都是很无礼的,被许多人视为种族主义。

Sarah Huckabee Sanders, Mr. Trump’s press secretary, conceded to reporters on Tuesday that Mr. Trump “hasn’t said he didn’t use strong language.”

特朗普的新闻秘书萨拉·哈克比·桑德斯(Sarah Huckabee Sanders)于周二向记者承认,特朗普“没有表示他不曾使用激烈的语言”。

“He’s passionate about it,” she said. “He’s not going to apologize for trying to fix our immigration system.”

“他对此充满激情,”她说。“他不会为试图修补我们的移民制度而道歉。”

But the dispute among the president’s defenders about the vulgarity he actually used did nothing to allay critics. “I think it’s all the same,” said Representative Cedric L. Richmond, Democrat of Louisiana and the chairman of the Congressional Black Caucus, which Mr. Trump also mentioned dismissively during the Oval Office meeting, according to one participant.

关于他实际上到底使用了哪个粗俗字眼,总统捍卫者内部展开争执,然而这样的争执并没有减轻对他的批评。“我觉得都一样,”路易斯安那州民主党众议员,国会黑人核心小组(Congressional Black Caucus)主席塞德里克·L·里奇蒙(Cedric L. Richmond)说。据一位参与者称,特朗普在椭圆形办公室的会议中,也用轻蔑的语气提到了这个小组。

“The words don’t matter,” Mr. Richmond said. “The words just cement his sentiment that the people in those countries are less worthy, and he would like people from different countries. He chose the black countries to say he didn’t want those people and one of the whitest countries to say he did want them. I think that’s telling.”

“措辞无关紧要,”里奇蒙说。“这些措辞只是强调了他的观点,他认为这些国家的人民低人一等,他更想要来自其他国家的人。他选择这些黑人国家,表示自己不想要来自这些国家的人,并且选择了最白的国家之一,说他真的很想要来自这个国家的人。我想这很说明问题。”

Asked if he saw any difference between the two words, Senator Tim Scott of South Carolina, the only black Republican in the chamber, was equally dismissive: “No,” he said.

被问及是否认为这两个词之间有什么区别时,南卡罗来纳州参议员,也是参议院内唯一的黑人共和党人蒂姆·斯科特(Tim Scott)同样表示不屑一顾:“没有,”他说。

Aides to Mr. Trump, and allies of the administration, readily acknowledged that the president sprinkles most private interactions with profanity and rolled their eyes at suggestions that previous presidents did not use such language. They saw his main offense as using it in front of a Democrat — Senator Richard J. Durbin of Illinois, who was in last week’s meeting and on Tuesday again questioned the president’s defenders about the word they said was used.

特朗普的助手以及特朗普政府的盟友承认,总统在大多数私下场合肆意使用脏话,如果告诉他们,历任总统都不曾使用这样的语言,他们会翻翻白眼。他们认为,他最大的冒犯就是在伊利诺斯州参议员理查德·J·德宾(Richard J. Durbin)——一位民主党人——面前使用了这个词。德宾参与了上周的会议,并于周二再次质疑总统的捍卫者们声称总统使用的其实是“茅房”这个词。

“I can tell you explicitly they are wrong,” Mr. Durbin said in a CNN interview about the reports to the contrary. “And let me also say, is that their defense?”

“我可以明确告诉你,他们是错的,”德宾在接受CNN采访时评论对方的说法。“我还想说,这就是他们的辩解?”

The “Rashomon”-like perspectives that have come to define most group meetings with the president gave his aides something to seize on to muddy the issue. But after an initial nonresponse on Thursday, the day of the meeting — most White House aides were at a party for a departing National Security Council official, Dina H. Powell — the aides swung into action long after the story could be contained, a fact that aggravated Mr. Trump’s allies outside the building.

这种“罗生门”式的众说纷纭可以用来形容大多数有总统参与的集体会议,因此他的助手们得以找到借口,把水搅浑。但是,周四会议当天,这件事一开始没有激发白宫助手的任何反应——他们大都去了即将离任的国家安全委员会(National Security Council)官员迪娜·H·鲍威尔(Dina H. Powell)的派对——因此过了很久以后才采取行动,没有遏制住这个本来可能被遏制住的故事,这一事实惹恼了特朗普在白宫之外的盟友。

There were reports that the White House might have pressured senators to say that they heard something different. But just a few hours after the first reports of what Mr. Trump had said, Rich Lowry, of the conservative magazine National Review, said on CNN that he had been told the word was in fact “shithouse,” although people heard it differently because the other obscenity is more commonly used.

有报道说,白宫本可能会逼迫参议员们声称,他们听到的是其他措辞。但是在关于特朗普言论的第一批报道过去几个小时之后,保守派杂志《国家评论》(National Review)的里奇·劳里(Rich Lowry)在CNN上说,他被告知那个词实际上是“茅房”,尽管人们听到的更像是“粪坑”,因为那个不雅词语更为常用。

One person familiar with an account of the meeting from Senator Tom Cotton of Arkansas, who was there, said that the president did not use either word repeatedly, and that the context was his opposition to the type of immigration system that Mr. Durbin and Senator Lindsey Graham, Republican of South Carolina, seemed to be promoting.

有人从与会的阿肯色州参议员汤姆·科顿(Tom Cotton)那里了解到了会议记录,他声称总统并没有反复使用这两个词中的任何一个,而且当时的语境是,他反对德宾和南卡罗来纳州共和党参议员林塞·格雷厄姆(Lindsey Graham)似乎正在推动的移民制度。

Any harsh language was not specific to predominantly black nations, according to Mr. Cotton’s account, and Mr. Durbin never spoke up in protest during the meeting.

根据科顿的说法,这种刺耳的言辞不是特别针对以黑人为主的国家,而德宾并未在会议上表示抗议。

But there is no doubt that one person at the meeting who did was Mr. Graham.

但毫无疑问,在会议上,格雷厄姆确实表示了抗议。

Mr. Graham, who was there with Mr. Durbin in support of their immigration plan, challenged Mr. Trump after the president lamented that there were not more Norwegians or Asians seeking to emigrate to America, although precisely when he did it was not quite clear.

格雷厄姆和德宾在会议上支持他们的移民计划。当特朗普惋惜没有更多挪威人或亚洲人愿意移民美国时,他对特朗普表示质疑,尽管目前尚不清楚他发言的确切时间。

In an interview, Mr. Graham said that he responded to Mr. Trump’s complaints about Norwegians not migrating to America.

格雷厄姆在一次采访中表示,他对特朗普对挪威人不移民到美国的抱怨做出了回应。

“The conversation was going down the wrong road, I thought,” he said. “Here’s how I started, I said, ‘If you’re from Norway, Mr. President, you’re a Norwegian.’ But if you’re from America what are you? It’s not an ethnic group, it’s not a religion — it’s an ideal. You can’t tell Americans by the way they look. People from all over the world want to be part of this ideal. And that diversity is our strength not our weakness.”

“我想,那次谈话跑偏了,”他说,“我是这样说的:我说,‘如果你来自挪威,总统先生,那么你就是挪威人。’但如果你来自美国,那么你是什么人?它不是一个民族,也不是一种宗教——它是一个理想。你不能通过一个人的外貌来判断他是否是美国人。来自世界各地的人想成为这个理想的一部分。这种多样性是我们的优点,不是我们的弱点。”

Testifying under oath before the Senate Judiciary Committee on Tuesday, Kirstjen Nielsen, the homeland security secretary, effectively confirmed that Mr. Graham had confronted Mr. Trump, a remarkable concession from one of the president’s own appointees.

周二,国土安全部部长克尔斯蒂恩·尼尔森(Kirstjen Nielsen)在参议院司法委员会(Senate Judiciary Committee)宣誓作证时,明确证实了格雷厄姆曾与特朗普对峙,这是一个由特朗普任命的官员所做出的重大让步。

“Senator Graham gave an impassioned speech on what he believes are the American ideals,” Ms. Nielsen said during questioning with Democrats on the panel.

“格雷厄姆参议员发表了激昂的讲话,阐述了他对美国理想的看法,”尼尔森在接受民主党人的质询时表示。

Notably, Ms. Nielsen refused to go as far as denying Mr. Durbin’s account, which Mr. Cotton and Senator David Perdue, Republican of Georgia, effectively did on television on Sunday.

值得注意的是,尼尔森拒绝否认德宾的说法;而科顿和参议员戴维·珀杜(David Perdue)周日在电视节目中,明确否认了德宾的说法。

She insisted she had not heard Mr. Trump use either word but did not flatly deny that he had, even allowing that he had used “tough language.”

尼尔森坚称自己没有听到特朗普用过那两个词,但她没有断然否认他说过,甚至表示,他使用了“激烈的语言”。

“Anything is possible,” Ms. Nielsen told Senator Amy Klobuchar, Democrat of Minnesota, when she asked if Mr. Trump had used one of the words.

“一切皆有可能,”在明尼苏达州民主党参议员艾米·克洛布彻(Amy Klobuchar)问起特朗普是否使用了其中一个词时,尼尔森回答说。

And how about the other, Ms. Klobuchar asked?

克洛布彻问道:那他用了另一个词吗?

“Again, it’s possible,” Ms. Nielsen responded.

“还是那句话,有可能,”尼尔森回答道。

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